Friday, April 06, 2007

The anti-FV challenge: Part II

(Opening Reminder: If you want to take a stab at making an anti-FV argument in accordance with this challenge, or if you simply want to pass along someone else's argument to me, then please e-mail me at xonhostetter@gmail.com. Cheers!)
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Continuing Introduction



Following up on the previous post, let's review the argumentative burden for any serious critic of FV theology:
1. The critic must show that some FV thinker or thinkers hold a view which is in substantive contradiction to something that is taught by the Reformed Confession to which they are confessionally bound.

2. They must ALSO show that the view in question constitutes a "major" or "important" issue within the Reformed system of theology.
I mentioned in the previous post that we'll largely be bracketing (2) in these posts, because those who are critical of FV thinkers have generally not offered much in the way of (2). So we'll be focusing on (1). Now let's review the three rules for "formatting" the anti-FV argument:
I. When you formulate your argument, put it in terms of a proposition which is either affirmed by the FV thinker(s) in question but denied by the Confession, or is affirmed by the Confession but denied by the FV thinker(s). So, what you should actually try to do is establish that there is some proposition P, such that either

a. Some FV thinker(s) teaches/believes that P is true, and the Confession teaches that P is false; or

b. The Confession teaches that P is true, and some FV thinker(s) teaches/believes that P is false.

II. Provide the textual evidence from both "documents" that establishes the respective affirmation or denial of P.

III. Provide the further argument that P represents an issue of fundamental importance to Reforemd orthodoxy; i.e., that a person cannot genuinely be "Reformed" while either affirming or denying P (whichever applies).
Rule III corresponds to (2) above, which we are bracketing for the most part. So our focus will be on Rules I and II. Let's say a bit more about those now.

The first burden of proof (1) states that the critic of FV theology must show a "substantive contradiction" between the teaching of some FV thinker(s) and the Confession to which they are bound. What do I mean by "substantive contradiction?" I mean, basically, that the contradiction must not be in name only, a matter of what words are used. As I pointed out in a post interacting with Guy Waters' recent lectures in Greenville, SC:
If I define a "dog" as "any animal that likes me", I cannot then accuse my neighbor of contradicting me just because he says his dog doesn't like me. On my weird definition of "dog," my neighbor's dog isn't really a dog, and so there is no contradiction. Likewise, if my neighbor believes that there are some animals (at least one) in the world that do like me, then my neighbor also believes in "dogs" on my wierd definition. So we both affirm that there are animals that like me, it's just that my neighbor doesn't use the word "dog" to refer to such animals but I do. This would not be a substantive disagreement.
This point has become a recurring theme in my discussions about the FV controversy lately, and I'm not alone. (Click for two more examples.)
I brought it out again in a comment to another post here on this blog:
It's like if I hold a conventional definition of "cat," and so I believe that "My pet Felix is a cat." But my neighbor, say, has his own idiosynratic definition of "cat". He defines a "cat" as "any creature which likes me." But Felix does not like my neighbor, so my neighbor says that Felix is not a cat. Now on the one hand we seem to be in direct contradiction to one another; I say "Felix is a cat" and my neighbor says "Felix is not a cat." But, if we leave it at this and say that we are indeed contradicting one another, then we commit the fallacy of equivocation. We have to define "cat" in both statements. And when we do this, there is no longer any contradiction. (Because "Felix is an animal of the species felix domesticus [or whatever the coventional definition of cat is]" does not contradict "Felix is not a creature that likes my neighbor.")

But now suppose I go back and say, "No, this is not good enough! My neighbor is using the word 'cat' in a different way than how I use it, and this in itself is a substantive disagreement with me about the world." Would this make any sense? I mean, we can even sympathize with me that my neighbor's definition of "cat" is idiosyncratic and that idiosyncratic definitions are a bad idea in general and at the very least are prone to confuse people. But the idea that, even once the different definitions are explained, my neighbor is still contradicting me simply because he uses the word "cat" differently is misguided to say the least.

And, in the case of FV, I don't even grant that our definitions are idiosyncratic. They are not "standard" for Reformed theology, but this is not the same as being arbitrary oddities. So, a fortiori, it doesn't make any sense to accuse us of contradicting the Confession simply because we use certain ordo words in different ways, either.
And Jon Barlow also made this point in his criticism of Rick Phillips (who was criticizing leading FV man in the PCA Steve Wilkins) back in January:
Consider an analogy. Suppose that the confession contains the following line:
”The doctrine of the Trinity is that Father Son and Holy Spirit are unconfused persons who are the divinity.”
and that the Bible contains this line:
”Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego made up a trinity of dissent in the empire.”
Could a pastor remain true to his confessional subscription and say that the word “trinity” is used in a broader way in scripture than in the confession? Surely all would agree that the pastor could. And yet Phillips’s claim is analogous—that Wilkins can’t really believe that the Confession has a biblical approach to “election” while also teaching that the Bible uses the word “elect” in a broader semantic way. Phillips confuses the sign with the thing signified, and he takes no note of the level of discourse in which the sign occurs.
In any case, the upshot is that we have to be sure that we are not merely clashing over words, but over the substance of what those words are being used to say.

It is interesting that a common complaint levelled by critics against FV thinkers is that FV thinkers use traditional Reformed words in non-standard ways, and that they are at best unclear about the fact that they are doing this. I'll leave an evaluation of that criticism aside for now, and just point out the irony of the charge given some of the fundamental mistakes that the critics' own arguments contain along just these lines.

The most fundamental of those mistakes that critics tend to make is the fallacy of equivocation (or, alternately, the "word/concept fallacy"). I recognized in the previous post that my challenge might seem a bit obtuse; after all, FV opponents have offered plenty of arguments. They quote FV writers and the confession and juxtapose the quotations all the time. So what exactly is the point of my "challenge" to them to do that which they do already? Well, the point is that they don't generally do a very good job of it, and in particular they tend to commit the fallacy of equivocation when they attempt these sorts of juxtapositions. And this is one of the chief strengths (I think) of Rule I, that by forcing critics to put their anti-FV argument in terms of a proposition P which is denied by one and affirmed by the other it forces them first of all to state what they think the proposition is. Instead of simply justxaposing quotes from FV writers and the Confession and then tapping their foot impatiently as if to say "Well? What do you FVers have to say for yourselves?" as though the contradiction is obvious, Rule I requires them to state explicitly what they think the substantive meaning of the juxtaposed passages is. If it really is obvious, then that only makes the assignment a very easy one. If there is really a contradiction, then the substantive meaning of the juxatposed passages must be "P" for one passage and "not P" for the other. So then we can ask the very simple question: what is P?

But usually when we ask this question, it becomes obvious rather quickly that the fallacy of equivocation is being committed, because if we look more closely we find that the same words are being used in different ways. In other words, the critics of FV theology might offer a proposition P which they say is affirmed by one and denied by the other, but when we look at P more closely we realize that the FV thinker and the Confession are not using all words with the same meaning. To illustrate, consider my example about different definitions of "dog" above. On a superficial reading of the situation, someone might say that I and my neighbor are in contradiction about the truth of the proposition P, where P is "Scruffy is a dog." After all, my neighbor says that Scruffy is a dog (he affirms P), and I say he's not (I deny P). Contradiction! But wait just a minute. We are each defining "dog" differently. When I say "Scruffy is not a dog", I am really saying that "Scruffy is not an animal that likes me." (because "any animal that likes me" is my idiosyncratic definition of "dog"). But my neighbor is using "dog" in the more conventional sense, to mean a furry friendly household pet that barks (or whatever precise definition we prefer.) So, even though we are contradiction one another with our words, we are not contradicting each other in substance. Substantively, we are actually affirming two mutually compatible propositions:
My proposition: "Scruffy is not an animal that likes me."
My neighbor's proposition: "Scruffy is a four-legger friendly pet that barks."
These two propositions are not contradictory, in fact they are comaptible! They can each be true, and in this hypothetical case they actually are. To claim that I and my neighbor are actually contradicting each other is to commit the fallacy of equivocation. (Definition)
(In other words, it is to assume that two or more occurrences of a word all carry the same meaning, when they do not. "Dog" means something very different when I deny P and when my neighbor affirms P.)
To really see if we are in a contradiction with one another, we must "translate" the two occurences of 'dog' into their actual meaning as they are being used in each respective case, and then see if what I and my neighbor are saying truly represents a contradiction. In other words, we must pay attention to the actual "usage definitions" of a word every time it is used.

I don't mean that we need to live our lives always paying close attention to this, but only when we hear something that appears to us to contradict something else we think we know. In that kind of situation, the only way to proceed is to pay attention to how the words are being used in both cases. There may be a contradiction, such things do happen, and then we will have to decide what to do. We will have to accept one of the contradicts and reject the other. We cross that bridge when we get to it, and I do believe that such bridges exist. But is intellectually lazy and fallacious to simply assume that the words carry the same meaning without looking. And anytime an argument is made which depends on such an assumption, that argument has gone awry in a deeply fundamental way.

Now, let's get our hands dirty with an actual example from the FV controversy. I have discussed some examples before. But let's turn now to a quick examination of the memorial from Central Carolina Presbytery (PCA) which was submitted to the 34th General Assembly of the PCA (summer 2006) against Lousiana Presbytery (PCA) regarding the latter's exoneration of the teaching of Steve Wilkins. The memorial claims explicitly that Wilkins "persists in teaching and publishing doctrines which are in contradiction to the Standards." It then lists several specifications of this claim, in which Wilkins is quoted and the Confessional passage he allegedly contradicts is also referenced. In other words, in terms of Rule I, the Memorial claims that there is a proposition P which Wilkins affirms but which the Confession denies (or vice versa). Indeed, it reads as a list of such propositions. Let's look at the very first specification:
TE Wilkins publicly teaches a doctrine of election in flagrant contradiction to our Standards. Whereas the Confession teaches that “God hath appointed the elect unto glory” (WCF III.6), TE Wilkins states that the elect are appointed to a conditional relationship which they can lose through unbelief. He writes: “The elect are those who are faithful in Christ Jesus. If they later reject the savior, they are no longer elect—they are cut off from the Elect One and thus, lose their elect standing” (The Federal Vision, p. 58).
Okay, so what do we have here? The Memorial claims that Wilkins teaches a doctrine of election which is in "flagrant contradiction" to the Westminster Standards. Okay, but what exactly is the proposition that Wilkins affirms but the Confession denies? This is where we have to do the work of trying to "translate" the Memorial statement into the format laid out by Rule I. Rule II is clearly met, as the Memorial identifies both the passage from the Confession (WCF III.6) and from Wilkins (The Federal Vision, p. 58) that it wishes to juxtapose. The question is how to accurately translate these two passages into the respective affirmation and denial of a proposition P. This is what Rule I requires the critic of FV to do. So what is P? Here are the two passages specifically:
WCF: "God hath appointed the elect unto glory" (III.6)

Wilkins: "The elect are those who are faithful in Christ Jesus. If they later reject the savior, they are no longer elect—they are cut off from the Elect One and thus, lose their elect standing." (Federal Vision, p. 58)
All right. It looks like the CCP Memorial is objecting to Wilkins' claim that elect people can "lose their elect standing", whereas the Confession says that God has appointed them "unto glory" (which means that they have to end up going to Heaven, because everything God appoints to happens does indeed happen, according to the Confession and basic Reformed theology). Our proposition, then, is something like this:
P1: The elect cannot do anything but end up in glory,
and it looks as though the Westminster Confession affirms P1 while Wilkins denies it. Contradiction, right? No, not so fast! So far we're in the same position as the superficial analysis above which incorrectly judged me and my neighbor to be in contradiction about whether Scruffy was a dog. We have to look, not just at the words used, but what they are used to mean in each case. We have to look at the "usage definitions." Both the Confession and Wilkins use the word "elect," sure; but do they mean the same thing by it? Let's look more closely.

The Confessional understanding of "elect" is relatively uncontroversial. It is using "elect" to refer to those people whom God chose from the foundation of the world to live with Him eternally in glory. There's more we could say about these people, but that's the basic group that the the Confession is talking about whenever it uses the word "elect."

Now let's look at Wilkins' article in the book The Federal Vision. The CCP Memorial quoted page 58, where Wilkins is discussing what he thinks the Bible says about "the elect." He is discussing how the Scriptures use the word "elect." And he thinks that the Scriptures often use that word to refer to a group of people who have been chosen to be covenantally united to Christ by virtue of their baptism and who are thus obligated to cling to Christ by faith continually or else they will be cut out of the covenant and they will lose their union-by-baptism and they will go to Hell. This, according to Wilkins, is the group of people referred to most often when the word "elect" is used in the Bible. And this is clearly the group Wilkins is referring to in the quote the Memorial selects from page 58, a passage goes on immediately to say: "But their falling away doesn't negate the reality of their standing prior to their apostasy. They were really and truly the elect of God because of their relationship with Christ." Here he is talking about a kind of election that doesn't have to do with whether you are predestined to go to Heaven; it has to do with whether you have a "relationship with Christ." And Wilkins believes that the Bible presents all baptized people as having a covenantal relationship with Christ, and hence as being "elect" in this sense.

Lest you think I am just putting a distinction into Wilkins' mouth that isn't really there, look two pages earlier in the article. Before he starts listing out the ways the Bible uses the word "elect," he sets up that discussion by saying the following:
It has been the common practice in Reformed circles to use the term 'elect' to refer only to those who are predestined to eternal salvation. Sine God has ordained all things "whatsoever comes to pass" (Eph. 1:11), He has certainly predestined the number of all who will be saved at the last day. This number is fixed and settled, not one of these will be lost. The Lord will accomplish all His holy will. But the term 'elect' (or 'chosen') as it is used in the Scriptures most often refers to those in covenant union with Christ who is the Elect One. (The Federal Vision, page 56, emphasis added)
Then he goes on immediately to sum up what he thinks is the Biblical teaching: "In the Old Testament,...." The clear and indisputable intention of Wilkins' words in the passage the Memorial cites, thus, is to refer to a group of people who have been chosen to be covenantally related to Christ by their baptism, but who have not necessarily been chosen to have eternal salvation. But Wilkins also, just as clearly and indisputably, affirms that there is a group of people who have been predestined to eternal salvation. Wilkins clearly believes in both groups of people. The latter group is what the Reformed have traditionally called "the elect." The former is what Wilkins says the Scriptures usually mean whey they use the word "elect."

Now, perhaps Wilkins is wrong about how the Bible actually uses the word "elect." (I don't think he is, though) But that does not matter in this discussion. What matters in this discusion is whether Wilkins' claim amounts to a substantive contradiction of the Confessional claim regarding the "elect." The CCP Memorial does not charge Wilkins with misunderstanding some passages of Scripture (because if that was the standard, who could stand?); it charges him with teaching "a doctrine of election that is in flagrant contradiction to our Standards." But does he?

Wilkins is positing two different groups of people (with some overlap, no doubt), chosen to two different realities (one is chosen to be covenantally united to Christ for at least a time, the other is chosen to be saved for all eternity). He says that both of these can be called "elect." This is clear as day. In the passage on page 58, though, he is talking about the 'covenantal-baptized' kind of election. This is clearly what he is referring to when he uses the word "elect" on page 58.

So, we are now ready to look more closely at P1 by taking into account the different meanings that "elect" has in the two teachings. In the Confessional teaching cited by the CCP Memorial, "elect" means "those predestined for eternal salvation", or "those chosen by God to live with Him eternally in glory," etc. In Wilkins' teaching cited by the Memorial, "elect" means "those who have been covenantally united to Christ by baptism," or something close to that. When we plug these new "usage definitions" into P1, we actually get two different propositions:
P2(WCF): Those chosen by God to live with Him eternally in glory cannot do anything but end up in glory.

P3(Wilkins): Those chosen by God to be covenantally united to Christ by baptism can fail to end up in glory.
Instead of one proposition, P1, which the Confession affirms but Wilkins denies, we really have two different propositions, P2 and P3, which are not contradictory at all. In fact, just like with our 'dog' example above, they are mutually compatible: they can both be true! As a matter of fact, Wilkins himself believes both of them, as is made abundantly clear in the quote from page 56 of his article.

So, what other conclusion can we draw but that the CCP Memorial has committed the fallacy of equivocation? Its authors clearly have assumed that "elect" carries the same meaning in both passages (WCF III.6 and Wilkins' article page 58), when it most clearly does not. (Further)
(Further, we can be even more aggressive and say that, even if Wilkins' own meaning WAS unclear, it is STILL the fallacy of equivocation to assume that the meaning of "elect" is identical in both passages. It is ALWAYS a fallacy to assume that two usages of a word carry the same meaning. That they do so must be demonstrated by a clear reading (taking the full context into account) of both passages in which the respective usages occur. If one or both passages are unclear, then you are no more warranted to assume that they both use the word with the same meaning than you are to assume that the meaning is different. You would simply have to admit that you don't KNOW if the meanings are the same in that case, but if you don't know they are the same then you CANNOT use those passages to show a contradiction. So, even if Wilkins is unclear (which he's not, frankly), the CCP Memorial has argued fallaciously.)
If we try to defend the suthors of the Memorial by suggesting that they meant something else as the contradicted proposition other than P1, then we have to supply the new contradicted proposition. For my money, I don't see what it could be.

Unofortunately, this is not an isolated incident. We can multiply these sorts of examples from anti-FV arguments. In fact, my observation of this fact (toot! toot!) is what 'inspired' me to pose this challenge in the first place. Too many of these arguments take the form of Quote-Quote-Tada! without anyone making sure that the words carry the same meaning in both quotes. When we try to isolate the proposition that is being contradicted as required by Rule I, the unworkability of the argument becomes obvious.

This is just a complex way of saying that anti-FVers "take FV writers out of context." I have no doubt that it annoys FV's opponents to hear this charge repeated yet again, but what else can we say? This is a textbook case. And we will see more. It is one thing to claim that FVers are just "whining" about being taking out of context, it is another thing when they provide detailed argumentation that this is so. We have just seen, in detail, that the CCP Memorial did indeed "take Wilkins out of context." Sadly, my own suspicion is that the detailed nature of this post will cause critics to dismiss it on those grounds. You know, I just need to get a life. But, if someone isn't putting up these sorts of detailed responses, then the opposite charge will be made that FV sympathizers claim they are misrepresented because they are "whining."

But now my tone is perhaps too aggressive for my and others' tastes. I really do invite anyone to "dialogue" with me on this and try to set me straight if you think I've missed something here. And I know it sounds like I'm being arrogant when I say that this is only the tip of the iceberg, but consider the position I'm in! I don't like talking this way, either. But it really is only the tip of the iceberg! :-)

In all seriousness, though, while I genuinely do offer my challenge with a sincere hope that godly men will take me up on it and we might have a fruitful dialogue, or at least that reading these posts might provoke some good and thoughtful dialogue away from this blog, I cannot apologize for revving the engine when the anti-FV arguments are so blatantly unsound, as was this one from the CCP Memorial. Real people, with friends and families and histories standing for the (Reformed version of the) Christian faith against the unbelieving world are being threatened with all sorts of penalties for their beliefs. They are "fighting for their ecclesiastical lives" in this. The critics are in no such danger; their ministries, congregations, and reputations are not being threatened to be taken away from them. So, yes, when critics in such a position offer arguments of the kind we've seen here and make other ministers vulnerable to suspicion or worse on such fallacious grounds, it is not "arrogant" for their defenders to point out that the arguments against them are rotten. May it never be.

18 comments:

RubeRad said...

"Wilkins is discussing what he thinks the Bible says about "the elect." He is discussing how the Scriptures use the word "elect." And he thinks that the Scriptures often use that word to refer to a group of people who have been chosen to be covenantally united to Christ by virtue of their baptism and who are thus obligated to cling to Christ by faith continually or else they will be cut out of the covenant and they will lose their union-by-baptism and they will go to Hell...Then he goes on immediately to sum up what he thinks is the Biblical teaching: "In the Old Testament,....""

I don't know what version of the Bible Wilkins is using, but I count zero uses of the term "elect" or "election" in the OT (ESV,NASB). There are a few in Isaiah in the KJV, that are talking about Christ himself or the elect remnant of Israel.

And as for "often", I count only one possible use of elect which is not in the WS sense: Rom 11:28, and even that is followed by a reaffirmation that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable"

I have read the article that surrounds Wilkins' (in)famous quote, and I find his early affirmation of TR election to be token and dismissive. His language of "really, truly the elect of God", etc. seem to me to be a deliberate attempt to unify with the accepted terminology and definitions. I do not find his article to be a good faith effort to be clear in his terminology.

Wilkins is faithfully following Lusk's agenda: "there is an election within an election, but for pastoral purposes the two can and must be collapsed into one another". No wonder FV has such a propensity to redefine terms!

Xon said...

Sorry for not being more clear, Rube, but Wilkins makes it clear that he is looking at Biblical usages of "elect" and "chosen".

The ubiquity of "the chosen people" in the OT, I trust, doesn't require demonstration here. (And of course even the recent FV Study Report by the PCA cmte acknowledges that the Westminster Standards acknowledge a 'covenantal' sense of election in the OT. The anti-FV Report uses the word "election" here.)

"And as for "often", I count only one possible use of elect which is not in the WS sense."

Well, Wilkins disagrees. That's okay. The fact that you disagree with him on his exegesis does not render him unorthodox, right?

"I have read the article that surrounds Wilkins' (in)famous quote, and I find his early affirmation of TR election to be token and dismissive. His language of "really, truly the elect of God", etc. seem to me to be a deliberate attempt to unify with the accepted terminology and definitions. I do not find his article to be a good faith effort to be clear in his terminology."

What you "find" needs to be argued more carefully, Rube. Almost all anti-FV people recognize that FVers are trying to put forward two "kinds" of election. (Though they question whether the two are in fact compatible.) You are saying something else here: you are claiming that Wilkins REALLY only believes in the "covenantal" kind of election, and that his explicit statements to believe in the "decretal" kind are not genuine. Either you can back this up with more than a feeling about his true meaning, or you are slandering Wilkins here. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but we've all been going around this track for a long time now.

"Wilkins is faithfully following Lusk's agenda: "there is an election within an election, but for pastoral purposes the two can and must be collapsed into one another"

Sounds like Guy Waters from the Woodruff Road Confereing in February, where Waters said that we need to treat people "according to what they profess," even though we know that not all of them are in the same eternal boat. There is, in other words, a "pastoral" (pracitcal) need to treat all covenant members in a similar way. You pressed this very point in your comment to "Even 'all' has a context", didn't you? So what's your beef with Lusk here, really?

RubeRad said...

"even the recent FV Study Report by the PCA cmte acknowledges..."

I guess you're referring to this sentence: "The Confession is, of course, fully aware of the national, ethnic, external, covenant election of Israel (LC 101), as a church under age (WCF 19.3-4, 1.8, and 7.5)."?

First of all, note how clear PCArpt is in making a distinction between its decretal use of the term "election" in the preceding paragraph, and a 'covenantal' use in the following sentences. Such clarity is not present in (and I argue, not the goal of) Wilkins, Lusk, et al. Guess how many times "covenantal election" or "covenantally elect" appears in the book Federal Vision? I can count them on no hands.

Second, note that even though PCArpt used LC 101 as a citation for "covenant election of Israel", the term "elect" does not even appear in LC 101, so I would say that this is a missed opportunity to make a distinction between the visible, chosen, covenant people of Israel, and those within her who were (WCF 19.5) "the elect in faith in the promised Messiah, by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation."

"So what's your beef with Lusk here, really?"
In "judgment of charity", TR already has a mechanism to "treat people 'according to what they profess', even though we know that not all of them are in the same eternal boat". It is not necessary to add a whole parallel covenantal ecclesiologosoteriology and confuse people by reusing the same terms. Besides, can you point to somebody who is guilty of treating somebody different because they are not actually elect? Obviously, such an error is not even possible, even if somebody were to try! I don't see the existence of this problem that FV is purporting to solve.

"we've all been going around this track for a long time now."
That's for sure. A young buck like yourself has too much time on your hands, and you write too fast and too much for me to keep up with.

What did you think of (Beisner's?) characterization in the Woodruff Q&A of FV'ers in your category -- young college men enticed by Doug Wilson's blog?

Or (Beisner's again?) description of how he was a perfect interested candidate for enrolling in FV, after "living in the 17th century for 7 years", poking his head up into the FV and being intially sympathetic, but finding persistent equivocation, which was resolved rarely, but always in a direction away from the standards?

Maybe those answers wouldn't fit in a comment thread -- fodder for new posts? You never did finish your Woodruff series...

Xon said...

"Guess how many times "covenantal election" or "covenantally elect" appears in the book Federal Vision? I can count them on no hands."

Maybe not, but they clearly distinguish between senses of election. The "labels" come later, as a result of hashing these things out more and more.

Again, this quote from Wilkins on p. 56 of the FV book which I cited in the original post:

"It has been the common practice in Reformed circles to use the term 'elect' to refer only to those who are predestined to eternal salvation. Sine God has ordained all things "whatsoever comes to pass" (Eph. 1:11), He has certainly predestined the number of all who will be saved at the last day. This number is fixed and settled, not one of these will be lost. The Lord will accomplish all His holy will. But the term 'elect' (or 'chosen') as it is used in the Scriptures most often refers to those in covenant union with Christ who is the Elect One."

So, Wilkins affirms the one sense of elect, and then also offers that Scripture speaks of another sense of elect, too. Thus, two sense of elect. The precise names for these is not necessary at this point (covenantal, decretal, etc.), and Wilkins' point seems perfectly clear to me.

"Second, note that even though PCArpt used LC 101 as a citation for "covenant election of Israel", the term "elect" does not even appear in LC 101, so I would say that this is a missed opportunity to make a distinction between the visible, chosen, covenant people of Israel, and those within her who were (WCF 19.5) "the elect in faith in the promised Messiah, by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation."

Okay, sounds good to me! This is the same distinction FVers are making when they speak of the "covenantally" and the "decreatlly" elect.

"In "judgment of charity", TR already has a mechanism to "treat people 'according to what they profess', even though we know that not all of them are in the same eternal boat"."

Okay, but FV isn't challenging TR at this point. Different people are all in the covenant, and we can't tell them apart (normally). The FV concern is that there is more that needs to be said, or different things that need to be emphasized, which TR does not account for.

"It is not necessary to add a whole parallel covenantal ecclesiologosoteriology and confuse people by reusing the same terms."

If speaking the way the Bible speaks is confusing, then I'm okay with being called "confusing." Paul, for instance, uses "sanctification" (or holiness) to refer to people who are not decretally elect. But the WCF says that only the decretally elect are sanctified. And Paul doesn't even have the decency to clearly define how he is using the word for us, so obviously he is just being confusing. ??

As to whether the "parallel covenantal soteriology" is necessary, this is the whole crux of the debate. We're not going to make much headway reliving all the arguments for or against its necessity here.

"Besides, can you point to somebody who is guilty of treating somebody different because they are not actually elect? Obviously, such an error is not even possible, even if somebody were to try! I don't see the existence of this problem that FV is purporting to solve."

There is plenty of precedent in the Reformed tradition for trying to get people to "prove" their election above and beyond their living a life in visible conformity to God's Word and professing faith in Christ alone. The "halfway" covenant, for instance. The refusal to admit children to the table. The constant qualifications that PCA pastors often make whenever they baptize a baby. "Now, let's all remember what this does NOT mean..." The temptation of some in the Reformed tradition to think of children as "on probation" until they grow up to prove themselves. The constant nagging that takes place in SOME Reformed churches that "a bunch of people here this morning have probably never REALLY believed the Gospel," etc.

"What did you think of (Beisner's?) characterization in the Woodruff Q&A of FV'ers in your category -- young college men enticed by Doug Wilson's blog?"

Everybody's got a theory. Beisner's a nice enough fellow, and I thanked him personally for his fine work on global warming when I ran into him at the Woodruff Road Conference. But I think he's all wet with this speculation. Or, at least, he's all wet in my case. I'm about to finish up a PhD in philosophy, and I spent two years teaching Bible and Logic at a classical Christian school when I first got out of undergrad. (That's how I first encountered Doug Wilson's writings, not through his blog.) I don't claim to be old and seasoned, but I'm not just a young cocky college guy. In my young, cocky college guy days, I was the Calvinist gadfly at an Arminian liberal arts college, and what a grand ole time I had. Having gotten the "basics" of Reformed theology under my belt, I guess I'm just looking for a conversation beyond "Arminians are stoopid, Five Points!" :-) But, for the record, I do believe the five points, and I do think Arminians are wrong.

As for having too much time on my hands, my semester just ended so I am a bit freed up this week, but as a general rule I don't have that much time on my hands at all. You might notice that I only post four or five articles on my blog a month; hardly a barn-burning pace. I do try to make what I post pretty thorough, and that does take some time, but I won't apologize for that.

"Or (Beisner's again?) description of how he was a perfect interested candidate for enrolling in FV, after "living in the 17th century for 7 years", poking his head up into the FV and being intially sympathetic, but finding persistent equivocation, which was resolved rarely, but always in a direction away from the standards?"

Yes, that was Beisner again. He's entitled to his own anecdotal autobiography, just as are all the people who have found FV writers helpful in a number of ways. I'm more interested in Beisner's actual arguments for how the FV engages in "persistent equivocation" and that it keeps coming down against the Standards (when it comes down at all). And I haven't found those arguments from Beisner (or the other critics) to be very good. I don't know what else to say. If someone thinks they can put the anti-FV argument in a way that is compelling, or if they think that Beisner has already put it in a way that is compelling, then that is precisely what this "anti-FV challenge" is for. Please, reproduce the argument; convince me!

"Maybe those answers wouldn't fit in a comment thread -- fodder for new posts? You never did finish your Woodruff series..."

Well, I said up front that the further we got in the less would need to be said. I just don't think there's much more worth commenting on from the Woodruff conference. Waters' third talk on justification might be worthwhile to interact with, but all the basic problems with his approach are already laid out in the first two talks. Pipa's fourth talk and the fifth "roundtable" thingy were of virtually no value whatsoever, though. There's nothing to respond to; it's all speculation, anecdotes, and preaching to the choir.

RubeRad said...

"As to whether the "parallel covenantal soteriology" is necessary, this is the whole crux of the debate."

OK, TR sez no, FV sez yes, so when are we going to see a proposal for the necessary extra chapters in the confession?

"The temptation of some in the Reformed tradition to think of children as "on probation" until they grow up to prove themselves."

The temptation of some in the FV non-tradition is to think that salvation comes by sacraments. The temptation of Calvinism is Hyper-Calvinism. The temptation of Arminianism is Pelagianism. So what? Theological correctness is not determined by pragmatism.

"The constant nagging that takes place in SOME Reformed churches that "a bunch of people here this morning have probably never REALLY believed the Gospel," etc. "

Don't such people need to hear that warning? Aren't warnings founded on the visible/invisible distinction critical secondary means of preserving the elect? What is Wilkins going to say at the judgment if one of his congregation ends up going to hell and says "I was always told in the strongest terms I was elect -- I was never warned that I might not be really, truly elect!"

"Wilkins' point seems perfectly clear to me."

That's because you have the Federal Vision. You should see someone to get your prescription adjusted (<-- look, another joke!)

"preaching to the choir"

But are all those people REALLY in the choir? (<-- hey, there's one at my expense!)

Xon said...

"OK, TR sez no, FV sez yes, so when are we going to see a proposal for the necessary extra chapters in the confession?"

There is no need for such a proposal, because we are under no obligation to make sure that every single thing we believe is found in a confession somewhere. The WS say what they say, and FVers agree with (the vast majority of) them. They also say some other things that aren't in the Confession, but which don't contradict the Confession either. This is the whole point of this "anti-FV challenge," really. If you think I'm blowing smoke here, then please by all means give me an argument I can do something with. Quote the Confession, quote the FV writer or your choice, and show how the two statements are contradictory (not just "different").

Confessions are not meant to tell us every single thing that it is acceptable to believe. So there is no problem with believing things that are not found in the Confession. The problem would be if FVers believed something (that was vitally important to true religion) which was contrary to the Confession. But, again, this ist he sort of problem that has to be demonstrated, not merely asserted.

"The temptation of some in the FV non-tradition is to think that salvation comes by sacraments. The temptation of Calvinism is Hyper-Calvinism. The temptation of Arminianism is Pelagianism. So what? Theological correctness is not determined by pragmatism."

This is a good point (about the irrelvance of "temptations", not about the FVers being "tempted" towards salvation by sacraments; that latter claim just isn't true I don't think). It's the kind of thing I often say. So kudos to you. :-)

Anti-FVers have made plenty of arguments about how FV thinking "leads to this" or "might lead to that" or "seems to imply such and such" or "overemphasizes this other thing," and I'm fed up with such nonsense. So, again, I repent in dust and ashes.

"Don't such people need to hear that warning? Aren't warnings founded on the visible/invisible distinction critical secondary means of preserving the elect? What is Wilkins going to say at the judgment if one of his congregation ends up going to hell and says "I was always told in the strongest terms I was elect -- I was never warned that I might not be really, truly elect!"

Yes, some people need to hear warnings, but FVers are all about offering real genuine warnings, too. (it's the circumstances under which the warnings are to be offered, and what the "danger signs" really are, that is disagreed upon) My point here was just to try to list out various things that show that the FVers were responding to a real "problem" that can be found in the Reformed world, against your claim that they just invented a problem that doesn't exist. I wrote the list in haste, though, so maybe it did less good than it could have.

Ha! to both of the last two jokes. You're a good sport, especially I'm just a wee bit tense today. Thanks for bearing with me. (Maybe it's the upcoming baby, or the end of the semester, or the training I'm doing for my summer job, or...hey, we all got stuff to deal with)

RubeRad said...

"Anti-FVers have made plenty of arguments about how FV thinking "leads to this" or "might lead to that""

Well, I'm sure I've made my fair share of such arguments myself. They have only limited use, which use does not extend to logical proof. Gimme some of those ashes.

"please by all means give me an argument I can do something with. Quote the Confession, quote the FV writer or your choice, and show how the two statements are contradictory (not just "different")."

That's what I set out to do, but I read enough to see that you already anticipated my objections, which are not new. I think (like somebody else that commented similarly on your blog somewhere I can't find at the moment) that you have rigged the game so it can't be won. If TR complains that FV contradicts the confession, you say "Oh, but we mean something else entirely -- we're not even talking about stuff that's covered in WS!" If FV does get nailed in a contradiction with the confession, you recourse to "oh, but that's not an important enough exception to get so uptight about". There's no winning your game. You're like Slick Willie -- "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is". Words mean things, and anybody that's not bending over backwards to rationalize themselves realizes that, in all of its decretal statements, Westminster did not mean to imply by their silence, "Oh, but as we all know, there are other temporal, covenantal meanings for all of these terms, and those are fine too".

Some day I'll be clever enough to think of some ridiculous doctrine that is not explicitly forbidden by Westminster, and force FV to swallow it on their own grounds. Then I'll show you all!

Well, this has been fun, but (like you), I've been around this tree too many times. And if I seem cranky, it's because I've done a few too many loops in the past few weeks with my own personal Frank Valenti. Either that, or I'm mean.

Congrats on your baby!

Xon said...

Hey, Rube, this HAS been fun, and I hate to go out on a serious note, but you've found my most sensitive nerve with your latest claim that my game is "rigged."

"I think (like somebody else that commented similarly on your blog somewhere I can't find at the moment) that you have rigged the game so it can't be won. If TR complains that FV contradicts the confession, you say "Oh, but we mean something else entirely -- we're not even talking about stuff that's covered in WS!" If FV does get nailed in a contradiction with the confession, you recourse to "oh, but that's not an important enough exception to get so uptight about"."

Wait a minute. It is perfectly reasonable to distinguish these two questions: first, is there a substantive contradiction b/w FV and the Confession; second, does this contradiction amount to a matter of vital importance? If you answer the first question with a "Yes," then you have to also answer the second question. You can't really deny this, can you? I'm not playing a trick here.

None of the denominations in which FV thinkers are currently ordained practice strict subscription, so a view contrary to the Confession does not, by itself, amount to a disciplinable offense. The anti-FV critic has more logical work to do, even if they show a genuine substantive contradiction b/w FV and the Confession. This is just the way it is, isn't it?

As to my insistence that we be clear about what words mean, this is just a necessity of good and proper debating. I gave a whole post responding to this objection (Part IV). Of course I might just be a sophist who is going to abuse this "what does x mean?" method, but the world is full of scoundrels and you can't blame that on the method itself. If you and I have a good faith discussion, though (as we have been doing), then I think you'll find I'm not a sophist.

Doing what I am doing here really "works" to show that, say, Arminians are out of accord with the Confession. It works to show that Luther and Zwingli are in contradiction on the Lord's Supper, etc. So far, when I have claimed that FVers use words differently, I have also quoted where they do so.

Finally, if you are right and I've rigged it then it should still be possible to make that obvious to others by exposing my method. You might not persuade my sophistic self, but you can show me for what I am. If you quote the Confession and then quote an FV writer saying something so obviously contradictory of the Confession that only the grossest rhetorical gymnastics will even appear to get them off the hook, then I'm sure your presentation of that passage for the world to see will affect a lot of people in the way you want. So, in short, who cares if I've "rigged" the game? You don't have to persuade me if you can persuade many others by exposing me.

"There's no winning your game. You're like Slick Willie -- "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is". Words mean things, and anybody that's not bending over backwards to rationalize themselves realizes that, in all of its decretal statements, Westminster did not mean to imply by their silence, "Oh, but as we all know, there are other temporal, covenantal meanings for all of these terms, and those are fine too"."

See, though, here it is. Your position requires us to make claims bout what Westminster meant to "imply by their silence." A dangerous game. But even if you are right and they did mean to imply this, then what do you do about the fact that they used a term like "election" in a covenantal and temporary way?

"Some day I'll be clever enough to think of some ridiculous doctrine that is not explicitly forbidden by Westminster, and force FV to swallow it on their own grounds. Then I'll show you all!"

What do you mean "force FV to swallow it?" FV does not require us to believe every doctrine that is not explicitly forbidden by Westminster. It just requires us to recognize that, if it is not forbidden by Westminster, then you claim that a person who holds it is out of bounds with Westminster. The Confession dos not attempt, nor could it accomplish, the refutation of every possible ridiculous idea.

RubeRad said...

"first, is there a substantive contradiction b/w FV and the Confession"

Now that you mention it, why is it on me (TR in general) to point out contradictions from the Confession? Christian honesty (and ordination vows, yes?) dictate that FV should lay out all of their exceptions to the Confessions. This is what I want to see: an article from the FV camp explaining (a) here are all of the places where FV departs from the confession (paedocommunion, covenant of works, ...), and (b) while we're at it, here are all of the places where it looks like we are contradicting the confession, but this is what we really mean.

If such an article exists, I have never heard of it (and FV should be linking the crap out of it). Your series here, anticipating and addressing objections is the closest I've seen.

"second, does this contradiction amount to a matter of vital importance?"

I think I have to play the layman card here, but it seems to me that this question cannot be answered, except subjectively. You think your differences are not vital, I think they are. Arminians say the time that our differences are not vital, so quit yelling at us, you intolerant Calvinists -- and obviously we do not agree. There exist objective standards to referee your first question (the texts of the Bible, the Confession, and the FV) -- but is there an objective standard set up somewhere to judge what is an acceptable exception from the confession, and what is not? When presbyteries have to make this decision, how do they do it? Are there rules in the book of church order or something? Or does it just come down to the informed, but ultimately subjective, opinion of the ordained elders involved?

"If you quote the Confession and then quote an FV writer saying something so obviously contradictory of the Confession that only the grossest rhetorical gymnastics will even appear to get them off the hook, then I'm sure your presentation of that passage for the world to see will affect a lot of people in the way you want."

You are correct -- I indeed have given up hope of changing the mind of any actual FV, but it seems to me not too hard to press them into "gross rhetorical gymnastics". Nice phrase.

"what do you do about the fact that they used a term like "election" in a covenantal and temporary way?"

Who did?

SOOOO, I think I might be ready to give your anti-FV challenge one shot. I guess you'll want to start a new post, rather than extend this comment trail, but this is the spot where I can type right now, so here goes.

WCF 10.4: "Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved"

WLC 68 "All the elect, and they only, are effectually called; although others may be, and often are, outwardly called by the ministry of the Word, and have some common operations of the Spirit; who, for their wilful neglect and contempt of the grace offered to them, being justly left in their unbelief, do never truly come to Jesus Christ."

From the Federal Vision book:

John Barach, p. 36-7: "Yet in God's wisdom, He has decreed that some of those whom He has chosen to bring into a covenant relationship with Him will enjoy that relationship only for a time. God truly brings those people into His covenant, into union with Christ."

Steve Wilkins, p. 58 (for these two paragraphs, all the emphases Wilkins' own): "The elect are those who are faithful in Christ Jesus. If they later reject the Savior, they are no longer elect--they are cut off from the Elect One and thus, lose their elect standing. But their falling away doesn't negate the reality of their standing prior to their apostasy. They were really and truly the elect of God because of their relationship with Christ.

"In fact, covenant is a real relationship, consisting of real communion with the Triune God through union with Christ. The covenant is not some thing that exists apart from Christ or in addition to Him (another means of grace) -- rather, the covenant is union with Christ. Thus, being in covenant gives all the blessings of being united to Christ."

p. 63: "If the branches are not truly joined to the vine, how can they be held accountable for their lack of fruit? The distinction of 'external' and 'internal' union seems to be invented and is not in the text [of Jn 15]. All the branches are truly and vitally joined to the vine.

p. 64: "God doesn't deny the objective, real nature of union with Christ, rather he upholds the reality which covenant has given to His people..."

My point, if you didn't catch it from my emphases, is that when the standards say "never truly come to Christ", they admit of the possibility that there may be some senses in which the non-elect come to Christ, but whatever those sense are, they are not "true". Yet FV very clearly pushes a doctrine of "true" union with Christ for all covenant members, even the non-elect.

Similar arguments could be made concerning confessional use of "real[ly]", especially wrt the sacraments, but let's keep it simple by restricting it to union.

As for the second question, as I said, I don't know of any objective standard for criticality, so I'll just lob out this idea: Paul condemns as ridiculous the idea of uniting Christ with depravity in 1 Cor 6:15

Xon said...

Now that you mention it, why is it on me (TR in general) to point out contradictions from the Confession? Christian honesty (and ordination vows, yes?) dictate that FV should lay out all of their exceptions to the Confessions. This is what I want to see: an article from the FV camp explaining (a) here are all of the places where FV departs from the confession (paedocommunion, covenant of works, ...), and (b) while we're at it, here are all of the places where it looks like we are contradicting the confession, but this is what we really mean.

Um, but this is precisely what Wilkins, Leithart, Horne, etc. have done at their various presbytery exams. FV thinkers have been very explicit here: they say that they contradict the WS regarding paedocommunion, and PERHAPS re the covenant of works (though they generally say this is only a quibble over words, and not a substantive disagreement). Other than that, they claim that as far as they can tell everything they believe is consistent with the confession.

If I say I didn't kill my wife, it's not on me to prove that I didn't kill my wife. Is there some evidence that I am lying? Then produce it. Is there no such evidence? Then my denial stands.

It is, absolutely, on TRs to demonstrate that men who say that they are in conformity to the Standards are actually not. Accusations of contradictions must be proven. If your characterization was correct that FV men have coyly avoided such questions that would be one thing, but it's not correct. Yes, there is controversy over whether FV views actually ARE in conformity to the Standards, but there is no controversy over whether FV men CLAIM to be in conformity.

So, at this point, there is nothing for the "prosecution" to do but present the people's case. There is no way around this. It's just Christian charity that you make accusations you can prove, or you don't make them at all. Heck, just giving the benefit of the doubt to the FV men as fellow Christians would require this. They say they aren't in contradiction, so that should be our default position. If we find something that seems problematic, a place where they actually do contradict the Standards, then we point it out. Seems simple enough to me. ??

Xon said...

I think I have to play the layman card here, but it seems to me that this question cannot be answered, except subjectively. You think your differences are not vital, I think they are. Arminians say the time that our differences are not vital, so quit yelling at us, you intolerant Calvinists -- and obviously we do not agree.

This is a fair point; it IS hard to determine "objectively" what is vital and what isn't. However, I don't think you're really characterizing the Arminian-Calvinist debate accurately. I don't know many Arminians who claim that they should be allowed to minister in the PCA, for example. In fact, I know many Methodists and free will Baptists and the like who not only have no desire to minister in Reformed denominations, but who would refuse to ordain Calvinists in their own denominations. Now, you are right that there are a lot of Arminians (and Calvinists) who argue that our differences are not important enough to keep us from calling one another Christians, and from working together for mutual goals and the like. But that's not the same as the FV controversy, in which the claim is that being FV makes you unordainable in Reformed denominations.

But, that said, I do grant your point that determining what's vital is unavoidably subjective. But, Van Tillian that I am, I'd say that EVERYTHING is unavoidably subjective. Some things are more so than others, but there is no escape from this problem. I personally do think that we could make some progress if we tried to answer this question what's vital and what isn't. It's not just a hopeless morass of subjectivity. As fellow Calvinistic Protestants living in contemporary Western civilization, I'll bet we share a number of presuppositions about what is important.

For instance, if someone denies justification sola fide, that would be a non-negotiable. Of course, FVers DON'T deny sola fide, but I'm just sayin'...If FVers denied predestination, or any of the other Reformation solas, or if we held that Jesus wasn't the only way or if we denied the Trinity, etc. etc. I think there are lots of things we can all agree are vital.

But whether or not "covenant of works" is a necessary theological term for understanding the nature of God's dealing with mankind before the fall, or whether other terms can make the same points better. Whether talking about any creature "meriting" anything from God is a good idea or not. Whether being in the visible church through baptism confers real blessings on people, even blessings that resemble rather closely sometimes the "ordo salutis" blessings we Reformed people are used to talking about. I don't see how these questions are "vital" at all. ??

But, anyway, you have kindly attempted to answer my challenge, despite these concerns about subjectivity and our wranglings over who has what burden or proof. So, I will stop beating a dying horse and will honor you with your own post. But that will have to be sometime after I do some yard work.

Xon said...

Speaking of which, would you mind e-mailing me, RubeRad? I'd like to run some stuff by you (so I can be as fair as possible) as I write the post. I won't ask you to give me your e-mail address here, though. You can just e-mail me by clicking on the link at the top of this blog, and then I can hit "reply" and get in touch with you that way.

RubeRad said...

"I know many Methodists and free will Baptists and the like who not only have no desire to minister in Reformed denominations, but who would refuse to ordain Calvinists in their own denominations."

Well, Methodists & Baptists are at least organized enough to have some understanding of confessionalism, official church membership, etc. I am more familiar with anti-Denominational Evanjellyfish that are doctrinally Arminian, but reject all labels, and deplore the fact that we would bar them from our pulpits (you can find a pretty good example buried deep in a comment-thread here).

"Of course, FVers DON'T deny sola fide, but I'm just sayin'"

As you must be aware, TR takes great exception to FV's insistence that the final verdict of justification is grounded on both faith AND faithfulness. Of course, FVers insist that somehow whatever they're saying doesn't deny sola fide, but I'm just sayin'...

"But that will have to be sometime after I do some yard work."

No rush... I'll give you a month, because -- assuming the PCA Study Report on Federal Vision is adopted by GA -- I plan to accept the judgment of my denominational leadership and wash my hands of FV.

RubeRad said...

Been reading the PCA rpt... WRT "never truly come to Christ": Note from Steve Wilkins' exam:

"When the confession says that these non-elect people “never truly come unto Christ,” it means that they do not receive Christ with a faith that perseveres unto final salvation. The confession does not address the question of whether they are able come unto Christ in some other sense and participate in some sense in the blessings of redemption that ultimately fall short of the fullness of salvation."

I.e. Wilkins claims adherence to the Confession on this point, by interpreting "never" as "not forever". Maybe he should invent a new contraction: "n'ever"

Since the FV are fond of marriage analogies, maybe I can tell my wife that I will "n'ever" cheat on her.

Xon said...

What Wilkins is saying, RubeR, is not quite as you are interpreting him. He is not defining "never" as "not forever." He is, rather, "defining" it as "never in the way described by the Confession." Never is still never.

In the Confession, "coming to Christ" means that you are regenerate, elect, possess saving faith, are predestined to persevere to the end, etc. These are all tied up in the Confession's "operating definition" of what it means to "come to Christ". So, no non-elect person ever comes to Christ in that senseway.

This, in fact, is something you should have to grant given the way you worded your argument a few comments ago. There you said:

"My point, if you didn't catch it from my emphases, is that when the standards say "never truly come to Christ", they admit of the possibility that there may be some senses in which the non-elect come to Christ, but whatever those sense are, they are not "true"." (emphasis added)

So, you yourself acknowledged earlier that the Confession allows for the view that the non-elect DO come to Christ "in some sense." But there is also a sense in which they do not come. That's your own understanding of the Confession's view, as stated earlier. Well, Wilkins says the same thing--the non-elect never come to Christ in some sense--i.e., that sense of "coming to Christ" described in the Confession. But, in other ways the elect DO come to Christ. The Confession doesn't rule that out, as you yourself said so eloquently earlier.

RubeRad said...

Yes, the non-elect may come to Christ falsely. And Wilkins does his darndest to assert that temporary visible union with Christ is real, true, vital, and essential.

The way FV is deconstructing language is dishonest (even an anti-confessional, non-denominationalist with no horse in this race can tell!)

Do you really believe that if you could time travel to the Westminster Assembly, and put on the table the motion that "in some sense, the non-elect do for a time 'truly come to Christ'", that you would get a response of "oh yeah, well in some sense I guess you could say that"? If so, then you are right in line with the current judicial philosophy of finding whatever meaning we can crowbar into the Constitution, rather than what was the apparent original intention of the framers.

Xon said...

I know I already responded to this in another thread more or less, but I'd like to put a more succinct response here.

What does it mean to "come falsely", Rube? Does that mean you come with your fingers crossed, so you don't really mean it? Does it mean you come to someone else other than Christ, but it looks like Christ at first/to others/to yourself? Or does it mean that you come to Christ in a real way, but not with the level of 'commitment' or not with the 'internal change' necessary for it to have a lasting impact upon your life? Or something else?

If you mean something like the last suggestion in the previous paragraph, then we agree. But if you mean something like the first two suggestions in that paragraph, then I disagree entirely and I don't think you are being consistent with your own claim to believe that the non-elect really do come to Christ "in a sense." B/c if you say that the sense in which they come is a false sense along the lines of those first two suggestions, then that's not a sense at all. Make sense? :-)

RubeRad said...

"not with the 'internal change' necessary" hits closest to what I meant to mean. I would have said "coming falsely to Christ" is to come under your own steam, as opposed to via faith which has been graciously and monergistically granted by the Holy Spirit. By (TULIPpy) definition, such a one who comes falsely is not regenerate, not justified, and will not persevere.